The New York Times reports:
After years of dead ends and promising leads gone cold, the big break came last August. A trusted courier of Osama bin Laden’s whom American spies had been hunting for years was finally located in a compound 35 miles north of the Pakistani capital, close to one of the hubs of American counterterrorism operations….
Detainees at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had given the courier’s pseudonym to American interrogators and said that the man was a protégé of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the confessed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.
American intelligence officials said Sunday night that they finally learned the courier’s real name four years ago, but that it took another two years for them to learn the general region where he operated.
So Guantanamo detainees provided the key intelligence that allowed the CIA to track down bin Laden. But not just any Guantanamo detainees. It turns out the detainees in question were KSM and Abu Faraj al-Libi, the man who succeeded KSM as al Qaeda’s operational commander, when the 9/11 mastermind was captured in 2003. Following KSM’s capture, Abu Faraj was designated by bin Laden as his official messenger to his operatives in Pakistan, and even moved his family to Abbottabad—the city where bin Laden was killed—to carry out that role. He continued serving as bin Laden’s messenger until his arrest in 2005.
What else KSM and Abu Faraj have in common: Before coming to Gitmo, both were held by the CIA as part of the agency’s enhanced interrogation program, and provided the information that led to bin Laden’s death after undergoing interrogation by the CIA. In other words, the crowning achievement of Obama’s presidency came as a direct result of the CIA interrogation program he has denigrated and shut down.
Something the president forgot to mention last night, when he claimed credit for “the most significant achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al Qaeda.” The president owes some thanks—and apologies—to the men and women of the CIA’s interrogation program.
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Let’s go through this real quickly (your logic I mean). KSM was captured and put through enhanced interrogation YEARS prior to his giving up of crucial intelligence. Abu Faraj was also put through the same program YEARS before giving up this crucial intelligence. Therefore, to say that the enhanced interrogation program should be “thanked” for this is a logical fallacy. Clearly, the torture (because that’s what it is) happened prior to the offering of intel. YEARS before.
We’re all happy that Osama has finally been laid to rest, but trying to dig up some sort of ridiculous connection to the enhanced interrogation program that was (allegedly) ended YEARS ago is just politicking.
Obama and holder are trying to prosecute these agents that interrogated sheik mohammed and al libi at a cia black site in poland.
Obama shut these cia black sites down and went to prosecute them. He then takes credit and gives bush none and dem reps and media mock bush.
I hate politics in this country.
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So cheefbird, where is your logic going? Do you think Eric Holder stumbled on to the intelligence while he was reading Miranda Rights to a terrorist who had a change of heart because he noticed how nice Eric was treating him? Or do you think Obama really is god and knew all along where Osama was hiding and just used this incident as a way to improve his poll ratings? Please explain your logic instead of making a sweeping generalization that lacks any logic or coherence.
Are you suggesting that Intel would be given up before “torture” happened? Is it a stretch in your mind that important bits of information were given up after KSM, et al were being tortured and then it took years to connect the dots to find Osama. The point is that they would not have gotten even the tiny bits that allowed the rest of the dots to be connected. Therefore, if not for the “torture”, Obama would not be claiming the apparent personal victory today. Just because KSM didn’t scream out the exact location of Osama during waterboarding sessions doesn’t mean the interrogation tactics failed.
Please admit that the Bush Adminstration’s conduct in the war on terror is still continuing today (albeit without the negative fanfare created by the mainstream media) and producing results that Obama is now using to his own credit.
It seems today is Day 1 in the war on terror for Obama…a war he told us during his campaign was a fabrication.
Okay, so instead of tossing out all our freedoms and attacking the wrong country in obvious panic, like the Republicans, Obama is showing courageous faith that a nation can live by rule of law and still defeat its enemies. That makes him your hero, right?
‘…the enhanced techniques that the CIA used against some of the highest valued detainees in the war on terror were “amateurish” and that their use “plays into enemy hands”, “ignores the endgame” and “diminishes the moral high ground.”‘ (former FBI agent who witnessed the procedures.)
Well, gee, that sure flies in the face of the self-adduced “expert opinion” of a man – Cheney – who has NEVER served or been formally trained in the military or in any law enforcement capacity or procedure. Cheney knows about as much about effective interrogation techniques as couch-potato bubba knows about triathlon training! This is what we get when we let two DRAFT DODGER CHICKEN HAWKS run the country and try to run two wars!
Just because Chenney and his right-wing psy-ops plant wants to revisit this story doesn’t make it any more or less true. Truth is not generated simply by saying something over and over again. You can’t market or sell me the truth. Get over yourselves you toe tapping Republican propagandist hacks.
Petraeus: Torture yields information of questionable value. Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. That would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone talk; however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. [Gen. David Petraeus, Letter to Multi-National Force-Iraq
FBI warns military interrogators: Enhanced techniques are of questionable effectiveness. Defense Department interrogators were being encouraged at times to use aggressive interrogation tactics in GTMO which are of questionable effectiveness and subject to uncertain interpretation based on law and regulation. Not only are these tactics at odds with legally permissible interviewing techniques used by U.S. law enforcement agencies in the United States, but they are being employed by personnel in GTMO who appear to have little, if any, experience eliciting information for judicial purposes. The continued use of these techniques has the potential of negatively impacting future interviews by FBI agents as they attempt to gather intelligence and prepare cases for prosecution. [FBI memo, 5/30/03]
FBI cites lack of evidence of [enhanced techniques] success. The differences between DHS and FBI interrogation techniques and the potential legal problems which could arise were discussed with DHS officials. However, they are adamant that their interrogation strategies are the best ones to use despite the lack of evidence of their success. [FBI memo, 5/30/03]
Army psychologist: Enhanced techniques do not work in intelligence-gathering. It was stressed to me time and time again that psychological investigations have proven that harsh interrogations do not work. At best it will get you information that a prisoner thinks you want to hear to make the interrogation stop, but that information is strongly likely to be false. [MAJ Paul Burney, Army’s Behavior Science Consulting Team psychologist, statement to Committee, 8/21/07. Senate Armed Services Report, p.78
Torture does not work, it is a tool for cowards.
DP:
Attacking a country in a panic? You mean like Obama did when he attacked that imminent American threat, Libya? Well, I guess Obama knows what he is doing judging by all his military experience. I think he and Cheney served in the same division didn’t they? And if he doesn’t know what he is doing he can always turn to Lyin Joe Biden whose military experience and plagiaristic tendencies are legendary.
Living by the Rule of Law? You mean the laws laid down by the myriad czars Obama planted in our government with the result of performing end-runs around our legislators and judiciary?
Freedoms? You mean like choosing your own healthcare as opposed to some inferior piece of crap healthcare bogged down in government red tape, waivers, and inefficiency? Or is it the freedom to be too big to fail so someone else has to pick up the financial tab of political and financial malfeasance? Or is it the freedom to protect yourself without your Second Amendment right? Or maybe it’s the freedom to look for a job that’s been extinguished by bad economic policies? Or finally, maybe it’s the freedom to reverse course on civilian trial of terrorists and the closing of GITMO? However, I can’t be certain which freedoms you are specifically referring to.
Torture? Uh no. It’s “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques”. You’re obviously a part of the head-bobbing politically correct crowd so I assume you already know that.
Using a quote from a general that people of your ilk used to refer to as General Betrayus is a pretty rich knee-slapper too.
Thanks for your dying liberal enlightenment; it was as entertaining as watching Obama give his “I’m a real tough wartime president, too” speech yesterday.
Brilliantly stated “inconvenient truths” that the blind faithful need to hear. Thanks!
A new level?
What are you talking about? Libya is a NATO mission and it’s cost up to date are less than a billion. The invasion of Iraq cost over two trillion tax dollars!
What is your talk of czars? czars have been in use in our government for decades. Bush had more than Obama.
On the topic at hand.I don’t care what the polls say or who was involved either; the law is not a matter of opinion. Torture is against domestic and international law. Period, end of story.
It is striking how many people don’t want to know about our use of torture, but also think it is justified.
The influence of the superficial viewpoints of the military-industrial complex is so insulting. Trying ever so desperately and endlessly to control the opinions of the people and those in power, so that we too will be Americans that are stupid enough to shoot first and not ask questions at all, accept those questions with answers we hope to hear gurgled through the voice box of some water suffocating prisoner.
Did we Americans torture people looking for a justification to invade Iraq? Now 4100+ US service men and women are dead and countless Iraqi civilians because Bush Inc. needed to get some oil and give Halliburton something to do. I can’t believe that some Americans are OK with that. Talk about spending….how about two trillion+ tax dollars down the drain for some failed corporate hacks.
Republicans have become Marxists, in the sense that they support propping up our economy with constant defense spending.
The Blue Sky Tribe has not left the building……but they do want you to hate somebody.
Water-boarding is considered torture because we (Americans) prosecuted people for doing it. We do not need to be defenders of torture. We need to be defenders of the ideals that make our country great: the rule of law.
Daniel, I completely disagree with you that torture does not work. After reading your post I was prepared to do anything to make it stop.
Sincerely–Bin Laden
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Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was caught and charged on February 11, 2008 — and faces the death penalty for terrorism and mass murder of civilians. So it’s just as likely (if not more likely) that he was trying to bargain his way out of a future death sentence than because he was waterboarded back in 2007-2008. The other guy, Abu Faraj al-Libi was arrested three years before that, in 2005.
So, yes, assuming that two guys gave up info because they were waterboarded three years ago and not because they’re facing execution by legal means is a pretty big stretch.
Death comes quickly and people of their ilk desire it since it’s what they peddle, so the deterrent effect is questionable. It also makes them the martyrs they all aspire to be. Waterboarding, well it’s uncomfortable and the discomfort continues while your heart still beats. At the end of the waterboarding sessions they don’t get virgins to have their way with and they’re not made into martyrs…then it starts all over again…with the same result…no virgin, no martyrdom. And guess what? When the waterboarding is over they don’t have physical marks like, say, a missing head and they are never in any real threat of dying. They’re not citizens of the US and they are not soldiers of an enemy country…this was a generous and humane way of treating human scum to make them spill the beans.
Personally I’d prefer waterboarding to being dead.
You’re not an Islamic terrorist, though.
So the guy using a woman as a human shield wasn’t a terrorist?
BTW, if they preferred a quick death to negotiation because the afterlife’s so great, why did they surrender in the first place? Why don’t they attack again and force the guards to kill them? Not buying your argument.
Why did Osama fight to the end…taking 2 bullets to the head?
Not buying your argument either.
Uh… not sure what you’re trying to say. How is Osama dying in a gunfight proof that two guys who were surrendered won’t negotiate? Obviously they did negotiate instead of die. Thank God!
I mean, one of Obama’s men used a woman as a human shield. Was he thinking about the afterlife?
BTW, this is from Fox News, not the words, “did not”:
“Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/02/unwary-phone-led-bin-laden-doorstep/#ixzz1LEo0veWv
Questions are not asked during waterboarding. It’s used to soften up hard targets.
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When did Obama claim credit for it last night? He said that he authorized the operation, which is exactly what he did. He did not say that he was responsible for the tracking, surveillance, and eventual killing of Bin Laden. If you want him to make sure that he acknowledges the hard work of the men and women who were involved in this operation, fine. Don’t put words in his mouth and claim that he is taking all of the credit.
Oh? He didn’t say in his speech that he had tasked his CIA chief with the capture of UBL, as if all along that’s all that had to be done…task the CIA chief with it…who would have known? That kind of goes without saying, doesn’t it? Or does Obama have to reiterate the obvious to the public? He then went on to say he authorized a special mission. Admit…he did some grandstanding to save his political behind. I don’t remember a similar press conference when he ordered our involvement in Libya…without input from Congress to boot. He won’t have to do much grandstanding though because the mainstream media will take over and do the work for him, and keep it in a 24/7 news loop, probably until the next election.
I will give Obama credit, though…here it is: Special thanks to Obama for continuing the Bush era War On Terror Policies which laid the groundwork for finding and killing Osama and for his reversing course on his previous idiotic policies. Aren’t you happy GITMO stayed open now? Imagine if all along Eric Holder had his way back when KSM was initially captured and was processed in the system like a Chicago politician. Do you think you’d have gotten the actionable intelligence? Not likely.
Welcome to the party boys.
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Yea that’s it; it is the torture that makes the difference. When you reduce yourselves below the level of your enemy that makes the difference. If you are uglier than your adversary and we make are own people worse than our adversary, that makes for some great secret military intelligence and a void for common sense. Hatred compounds hatred so let’s be worse than our enemies so we don’t have any enemies but our ownselves are our worst enemy because we have become worse than our enemies and Hitler’s nazis have done so well with that philosophy.
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” KSM was captured and put through enhanced interrogation YEARS prior to his giving up of crucial intelligence. Abu Faraj was also put through the same program YEARS before giving up this crucial intelligence.”
Totally wrong. Totally. Timeline completely wrong. The waterboarding broke KSM.
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